Colt or Daniel Defense Basic AR-15

[Pablo]

Should I get this:

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2681

Total $1427.03 OTD

OR this:

LE6920MP-B

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtCarbinesII.aspx

Total $1287.98 OTD

[Bill_in_Utah]

I'd go for B.

Thought you wanted to stay below a grand?

Most of the AR15s are good to go IMO.

Be safe, Bill

[Pablo]

Yes, my arbitrary $1k quickly be became superfluous when I couldn't get the (new) Colt under that price point. I like Colt hand guns but it seemed like the Colt haters were screaming in my right ear.....well one thing the whole AR-15 decision has really slowed my gun acquisition rate.

[Bill_in_Utah]

You can get a good serviceable rifle for under $1000. I've built a few and they are still going after thousands of rounds. The most expensive one I built was a 24" bull barrel flat top which made the whole rifle get right around $1k.

I've had great luck with Stag uppers and DoubleStar, Rock River, and Spikes lowers. Spikes also has some excellent uppers for the $600 price when you can get them.

Lets take a Rock River lower for $125, trigger kit $70, decent stock $75, nice flat top with carry handle/sight upper for $500 incl BCG. Throw in a few Pmags for $50 (3 of them) and you have a excellent unit for around $825-$850. If you want just a flat top ready for optics upper than only $450 shipped.

In fact you can get a flat top upper with flip up rear sight, stock, lower parts kit for around $625. Add a lower of your choice for $100-$200 and you have a complete AR-15 for $725-$825 before mags.

Lots of choices out there. In the AR-15 world most of them are excellent IMO.

Take care, bill

[Pablo]

If I was retired I would build my own.

[Bill_in_Utah]

If I was retired I would build my own.

Take you less than few hours. Really!

Hardest part is cutting open the boxes.

[BarryinIN]

The Colt haters usually base their hate on listening to other Colt haters; not anything substantial.

Pro-Colt AR rant follows:

******************

I hear people bash Colt ARs, but I never hear of any problems with them.

Sometimes the haters might bring up cost, but with ARs, I really think you do get what you pay for with a Colt. The bolts all get mag particle inspected, each barrel gets HPT (high pressure test) and so stamped, carrier keys are staked to death, the buffer tube nut is staked- all are little details that cost money and make the difference. Some companies do these things on some guns at random. Some don't do them at all. Some might see it done depending on who was on-shift that day. Colts and some others get it done to every rifle, and those are going to cost a little more.

I have never seen, heard of, or read about a Colt that didn't come out of the box, get properly lubed, have a decent mag of decent ammo loaded, and work fine for thousands of rounds.

Instructors see what works and what doesn't. Pick any well-known instructor's name and run a search of them and "Colt" and I bet every hit will be them using Colt as a standard for comparison.

For whatever reason, even when Colt made some crummy handguns and even worse business decisions, they seem to have kept the AR line up.

When you hear the phrase "...just a good as a Colt", ask if they've had a Colt.

End of rant.

*****************

Now...

I think with Colt and DD, you are looking at equivalent quality. I've never owned a DD, so am going on hearsay there. My Colt fanaticism comes from personal experience and observations.

So if we call them even there, that leaves the features of the models named.

The big difference in features I see between then, and it accounts for the price difference (at least pretty close), is that:

The Colt comes with Magpul furniture.

The DD comes with a forend rail and their iron rear sight, but standard stock and pistol grip (PG).

If it were me, that would put me asking what I wanted to do with it.

The Colt's Magpul MBUS rear sight is what I have been using on one AR recently as my only sight while I straighten out optic issues. It is a pretty good rear sight and the dual apertures in the same plane are really nice, but I might want a fixed rear sight like the DD if that was all I was going to have (no optic).

I do want optics so a folding rear sight would be my preference. But that's me. Some people liked a fixed rear even with an optic, but I don't.

Again, this being if it were me, I don't like the standard M4 stock much and like the A2 PG even less. If I bought the DD, I'd order a new stock pretty soon and would be changing the PG as soon as I got it home, even if to a pre-A2 grip. But that's me.

I could live happily with the Colt's Magpul stock and PG as they come. The Colt's stock looks like Magpul's MOE model, which I like fine, and the PG looks like a MIAD. I've never had a MIAD but would almost certainly like it better than an A2.

That leaves the front end. The DD has the rail. That alone makes up most of the price difference. Do you want a rail?

Again, me: I like mounting a light, a VFG or AFG, and maybe a sling mount. For a while, the way to get that (mounted solid anyway) was to get a railed forend. I kinda hated getting an expensive, bulky, railed forend simply to mount a light and grip, but didn't have much choice if I wanted them. The Magpul MOE forend will mount a light with their Illumination Kit or will mount their VFG or AFG, and that's what I got for me my recent AR. The MOE forend and Surefire light and foregrip I'll install all together will cost less than a forend rail alone.

The bare MOE forend feels better to me than most other forends too, railed or not. Id get it for that reason even if I didn't want to mount anything.

It looks kinda cheap, but it is a better piece than it looks.

However...

A railed forend gives you more options. You can mount rail sections to the MOE to put other maker's stuff on, but it's easier with a railed forend. Whether that's worth the cost is up to the user. I have to think its more secure mounting sonething directly to a rail than some things that get mounted to the MOE. Some are attached directly to the MOE and and some, like the Illum Kit are rail pieces that get attached by screws then have the light mounted to the rail. Mounting directly to the rail would eliminate one "joint".

I have no need for this, but a railed forend is the only way I know to mount a PEQ laser target designator...but that's not an issue for most of us.

One thing a railed forend can do is provide a free-floating forend. This might be nice in some braced positions like if bearing hard up against barricades, but I've never had my non-floater Surefire forend throw a shot that I know of. I don't know if the DD EZ-CAR forend is free-floating, but most easy mount ones aren't, so it may not be an item at all here.

So there's how I see it. It pretty much comes down to whether I'd want a railed forend for more money or the Magpul stock and PG for less money.

[BarryinIN]

Oh yeah-

The Colt looks like a regular 6920 with Magpul furniture. Since it's priced $189 more than my LE6920 was marked last month, if you have the time, it would be cheaper to buy a regular LE6920 and then get the Magpul stuff separate. The hitch there is that some of the Magpul gear is backordered at a lot of sources now.

[wwillson]

Originally Posted By: Pablo

If I was retired I would build my own.

Take you less than few hours. Really!

Hardest part is cutting open the boxes.

Pablo,

Take Bill's advice and just build one - it's not too difficult and you have several friends here that can help with advice.

Wayne

[BarryinIN]

Dissenter here!

I think most people can build an AR and do it for considerably less than a Colt or Daniel Defense new complete rifle.

I have doubts anyone can build an equivalent rifle for less. Any less. I would be surprised if it could be done for $100 more than buying one.

You can build one the easy way and buy major components, or the...well, not hard, but less easy way of buying every piece.

I think you'll spend more than a complete new rifle if buying it piece by piece, or even groups of pieces like a "lower completion kit".

Remember- I'm talking comparable quality here, not seeing how cheap it can be done or finding a compromise between cheap and good enough.

Going the route of buying components to make it slightly easier (assembling it like after a good cleaning) would be even more.

A BCM upper, minus bolt and carrier assy, charging handle, and handguards, is around $500.

A BCM or Dan'l Def bolt and carrier assy would be around $150.

About $23 for a charging handle. And the forend or rail of choice.

Lowers? Whatever you want to pay. The local gun shop usually has some complete "brand of the month" lower halves for around $350.

For a total of...

Over a thousand. $1,023 minus forend or rail. Call it roughly $1050 with regular M4 handguards.

Would you rather have that for $1050 or a Colt 6920 for $1100?

Put another way:

That parts gun is on the rack for $1050 and a Colt is next to it for $1100. Which would you get?

Add a rail, buis sights, etc, and you're up to the DD.

I know, someone can build one for $700 or $600 or whatever.

I figured the parts gun using pretty good parts (but not gee-whiz stuff by any means) and by using a mystery, but OK, lower.

Naturally, you could spend less on one, and I could plan one out for less, but since we are comparing this parts gun to Colt and Daniel Defense, I was trying to keep quality good without going crazy. I kept it down when that is taken into consideration.

The lower I used is probably debatable. It could be done for less, or for more. You might be able to piece together a lower assembly and save $100 off the example I used from the gun shop. You could buy a BCM or Stag level lower and spend more, too, and I do think it would be a closer comparison. Even if going the $100 cheaper route, that leaves them close.

I didn't figure in a carrying handle (which the Colt has) since I am guessing you might not want it, but if you do, there's another $100.

[Pablo]

That's what I was stuck on.

My second AR-15 I will most likely built from parts and I mean about every piece.

[Bill_in_Utah]

I've never had a single problem with all the gas ones I've built and some of them have been shot quite a bit.

The one piston AR I built (Adams upper) was a piece which after 3 months of problems it was bought back from me at full price. Went with another gas one which has worked quite well.

To each their own. If you are shooting it hundreds of rounds DAILY day in and day out then maybe you "need" something that is "top rack".

For us who keep firearms for decades, shoot them quite a bit I'm happy with the route I've taken over my years.

Good luck with whatever you get Paul! Be safe and have fun!

Bill

[jjjxlr8]

You could always just buy one of the DTI "complete rifle kits" and find your favorite stripped lower and put one together like you want.

Del-ton (DTI) will build the complete upper of your choice (inlcuding BCG) and then mail it to you along with a buttstock of your choice and a lower parts kit.

This route only requires you to put together the stripped lower which is very easy. Your first time, if you're careful and go slow, it might take you 45-60 minutes tops. The only tools you need are a punch and a hammer to tap in some roll pins and a castle nut wrench for the buttstock. One of the inexpensive "AR15 tools" will work nicely.

[Pablo]

It is done.

I bought a Daniel Defense, except a different model than above.

[BarryinIN]

I think you'll be happy with that.

Which model did you get?

[Pablo]

I decided I really wanted a mid-length.

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1848

I haggled. He wouldn't come down on price, but he threw in a bunch of stuff, plus changed the furniture over to OD.

[BarryinIN]

Well cool. I've never had a mid length myself, but don't see any downside to it. Maybe there were fewer forends and rails at first, but that's changed, and not a problem with that one anyway unless you decide you want something else up front. If you do, there are only about 20 million choices.

I don't hang a bunch of stuff on the front, but I do like a light and sling attachment (to move it more rearward). The thing is, I put those two things on the same side, so it starts getting crowded on that side with a standard length. Another couple inches of rail or forend would feel roomy.

[Pablo]

Funny thing - I thought for sure rails in front of the front sight were too much rail.

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1283

[BarryinIN]

They look funny, but I know of at least a couple of people who want that, so they can mount a light at 12:00.

[Pablo]

They look funny, but I know of at least a couple of people who want that, so they can mount a light at 12:00.

I thought about that, and really didn't need any more weight up front. The rifle if light and perfectly balanced as is.

[Pablo]

Wow. First of all the gun is super accurate and WAY too much fun to shoot. I needed to dial the sights in a couple clicks because I changed the rear sight to an A.R.M.S. pop-up sight. Easy to service and clean.

It shot all factory ammo fine, including three brands of Russian stuff with steel (coated and zinc) cases. I did have some jams with some out of spec small factory reloads. The gun jammed up tight. Boy did I learn quick to unjam an AR. I had to lever the bolt carrier back. The scary thing is I couldn't pull the charge handle back with enough force so I had to break the gun down to lever the bolt carrier. But the first time I discovered the problem - pull trigger,CLICK, no bang! But the round was not fully seated. Yikes! Glad it did not go BANG. The case just was not formed properly. The guy is giving me replacement rounds plus and extra fifty extra:

http://bridgercustomammo.com/

He said he had a tooling issue.

Anyway, I love the gun.

[steves]

Colt or BCM. Read up on how they are built. Buy the best and be happy for years and years.

[Pablo]

Colt or BCM. Read up on how they are built. Buy the best and be happy for years and years.

Happy with my Daniel Defense.

[BarryinIN]

Originally Posted By: BarryinIN

They look funny, but I know of at least a couple of people who want that, so they can mount a light at 12:00.

I thought about that, and really didn't need any more weight up front. The rifle if light and perfectly balanced as is.

I know you aren't doing this, Pablo, but I wanted to share a little observation anyway:

While mounting a light at 12:00 sounds like a great idea, the problem is the barrel causes a shadow to be cast across the bottom of the illuminated area. This shadow can cover a pretty large area. If holding someone at gunpoint with such a rifle, this shadow almost always falls over the hands- about the last place I want it.

[Pablo]

I know you aren't doing this, Pablo, but I wanted to share a little observation anyway:

While mounting a light at 12:00 sounds like a great idea, the problem is the barrel causes a shadow to be cast across the bottom of the illuminated area. This shadow can cover a pretty large area. If holding someone at gunpoint with such a rifle, this shadow almost always falls over the hands- about the last place I want it.

Good point. I was NOT thinking along those lines. I still haven't mounted anything on the rails.